tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post120507311009658421..comments2023-10-28T05:58:07.377-07:00Comments on Anglicans Ablaze: Down the Garden Path with Bishop Ray SuttonUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-41039465490514205372010-11-16T23:14:58.599-08:002010-11-16T23:14:58.599-08:00More on the every-changing Ray Sutton. What's...More on the every-changing Ray Sutton. What's next in his gig?<br /><br />http://reformationanglicanism.blogspot.com/2010/11/boultbee-i-pg12-thirty-nine-articles.htmlReformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-59503598553331468752010-09-25T15:57:18.547-07:002010-09-25T15:57:18.547-07:00"Reformation",
It wasn't my intenti..."Reformation",<br /><br />It wasn't my intention to post as anonymous. I link directly to my email, blog, which has bio information about me, at my blogspot profile page.<br /><br />I am Perry Robinson. I've taught philosophy for a living in the past and I run an Orthodox blog. I was raised in TEC and spent some time in the REC and the ACC. I am married (14yrs) and have three kids (all girls). I hope that is sufficient for posting purposes.Acolyte4236https://www.blogger.com/profile/06247421363309732839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-56482312807558987992010-09-25T11:29:42.106-07:002010-09-25T11:29:42.106-07:00Acolyte 4236:
I never read "anonymous" ...Acolyte 4236:<br /><br />I never read "anonymous" posters. I find them cowardly. Ergo, you were not read.<br /><br />That policy will be upheld at my blogsite.<br /><br />Who are you?Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-85552036500388651262010-09-24T09:58:49.217-07:002010-09-24T09:58:49.217-07:00The OCA is not on the “fringe” of Orthodoxy. It is...The OCA is not on the “fringe” of Orthodoxy. It is a canonical jurisdiction without question. Perhaps you are thinking of ROCOR, but the ROCOR schism was healed just a few years ago with the Moscow Patriarchate. The OCA has no “shaky” standing in relation to other Orthodox Churches. Where I live, there is no hint of any divide between the local OCA, GOA, or ROCOR clergy or laity.<br /><br />You are correct that there would be not inter-communion without full subscription to Orthodox teaching and practice. At best the ACNA would be allowed to retain in the main their liturgical heritage like the Western Rite Antiochians do with the 1928 BCP and Missal. <br /><br />To be fair, the Orthodox view Rome heterodox or at least holding to heterodox doctrine, as articulated in the Patriachial encyclical of 1848. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx<br />Consequently, we do not take Roman orders to be “valid” in terms of sacramental efficacy either. <br /><br />As for some Augustinian doctrines, what you say is true, with one exception. Augustine didn’t hold to the doctrine of total depravity because Augustine didn’t think that righteousness was intrinsic to the imago dei, as the Pelagians did. Rather righteousness was part of the donum supperadditum given to Adam at his creation. Grace was added to nature, but not intrinsic to it. Hence it is not possible for Augustine to hold to the Reformed doctrine of Total Depravity, which took righteousness as a constituent of the imago dei.<br /><br />And the Reformers rejected other parts of Augustinianism, such as inherited guilt favoring imputed guilt. The point being that non-allegiance to Augustine isn't a deal breaker.<br /><br />As for the Articles, they are not to be confused with scripture on Anglican principles, whose every understanding of Anglicanism we may go with. They may be authoritative, but they are not ultimately so since they are fallible. If the Filioque is false or lacks scriptural support, then it matters not if the Articles teach it. The fact is that Anglican divines as well as their continental counterparts, all accepted the Filioque pretty much without examining it critically and accepted it on a dubious exegetical basis and on demonstrated misreading of patristic texts or texts now known to be interpolations.Acolyte4236https://www.blogger.com/profile/06247421363309732839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-45924105857242770352010-09-23T19:04:36.142-07:002010-09-23T19:04:36.142-07:00Jim:
Dancing off on the atonement and justificati...Jim:<br /><br />Dancing off on the atonement and justification will not help.<br /><br />Suffrage? Over what? <br /><br />Let's hear your views on these matters.<br /><br />Will we hear from "Ray" on the atonement and justification...the hinge of the Reformation? The article on which the Church of Christ stands or falls? Or, with "the ever-shifting Ray," will we hear "another story?"<br /><br />Sorry to sound cynical, but have been watching "both-lanes Ray" for 20 years now. As a Bishop, laughing here.Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-30650798445699138712010-09-23T17:46:50.527-07:002010-09-23T17:46:50.527-07:00Jim:
No, B16 does not agree with the Catholic and...Jim:<br /><br />No, B16 does not agree with the Catholic and Reformed tradition. In fact, while confessing the Nicene Creed and Trent, he is insulting, belittling, and diminishing Christ. B16's soteriology and sacramentology eviscerates his Christology. On that simple point, all the Reformers--German, Swiss, English, Scots, French, and English agreed. <br /><br />B16's Christ is not the One I know or confess. That I expect from a sophisticated anti-christ like B16.Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-20544051854847765862010-09-23T17:33:43.277-07:002010-09-23T17:33:43.277-07:00Thanks Jim, although the "either-or" won...Thanks Jim, although the "either-or" won't fly. Advise otherwise.<br /><br />Thanks for the response. Am rooted in the Leviticus-Hebrews connection as well as NT references to "uper." Whatever you are, at least you answer, liberal though you may be.<br /><br />It ain't classical Anglicanism in the Reformed variety, however.<br /><br />As to Robin's thread re: Mr. Sutton, we may well expect him to change lanes, back and forth, like a drunken driver.<br /><br />As to Robin's thread, let it be noted that Mr. Sutton was a Westminsterian and 5-point Dordrechtian Calvinist. My issue is his maturity and stability of judgment--in the 80's and 90's. <br /><br />Then, came the last ten years. <br /><br />Regards.Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-44273980101891188242010-09-23T15:22:03.355-07:002010-09-23T15:22:03.355-07:00Reformation & Joe,
I am engaged elsewhere at ...Reformation & Joe,<br /><br />I am engaged elsewhere at the moment and apologize for the perhaps excessive brevity. I also note that as a "progressive" or "liberal" voice I am here on sufferance.<br /><br />That said (deep breath) my own thoughts on atonement are pretty much on the side of "Christus Victor" and not substitutionary atonement. I hope the reference is helpful. I shall attempt to spend more time later.<br /><br />In general, no one can agree with everyone and I do not. I do not for instance agree with Robin. But I do not doubt his Christianity, I simply think he is wrong about some stuff. I am perfectly willing to discuss those with him.<br /><br />Another thought, consider that Bene16 or as I prefer B16, prayed with Rowan. Do they agree? Yes on the basics of the faith as found in the Nicene creed they do. The details, not so much. But that is enough to get to at least vespers.<br /><br />FWIW<br />jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-14976609978253600222010-09-22T06:53:07.736-07:002010-09-22T06:53:07.736-07:00Jim,
I'm having a real difficult time understa...Jim,<br />I'm having a real difficult time understanding exactly what you are trying to say. Are you simply saying that SALVATION is dependent upon faith in Jesus Christ? If so, then we are in agreement. But that faith must be true, real. The Holy Ghost must in this process change the nature of the one who is saved (received SALVATION). He is no longer of the old nature; he is a new creation, born again; he has a new nature. He is no longer a slave to win, the world, and the devil. He is now a slave to God to do righteousness. The Law which cannot save anyone but only condemn is never the less the instructor in righteousness. Righteousness pleases God. The new nature of the SAVED desire now to please God, the have his mind changed, in all respects, he obeys the Law because it is righteousness and is pleasing to God. He believes what God has revealed because that also pleases HIM. This is SANCTIFICATION. Now, knowing all the doctrines does not save anyone, it does not change his nature. But by GRACE, God's GRACE all those who believe in Jesus Christ are SAVED. They are baptized by the Holy Ghost and are made anew. But where is the proof of rebirth. It is in what the SAVED does, what he says, what he thinks, and what he believes. The evil tree has been converted into a good tree, the thistle is made into a fig tree now producing figs. With man this is impossible, but with God nothing is impossible. So Ray and you are wrong if you think that godly doctrine is in any way unimportant.<br />JoeJoe Mahlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11159602829251282904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-55148954662103684362010-09-22T06:42:19.233-07:002010-09-22T06:42:19.233-07:00Well. I think your insights are right on basicall...Well. I think your insights are right on basically. I think we need to discuss these things . One should defend his position and there should be a mutual charitable discussion across the aisle. I do lament the loss of the church I knew when I was in it . I do not think joining with other groups in some collegial fashion should erase one's distinctives such as the 35 articles REC and the REC Prayer Book which was the Bishop White book of 1785 and had some meaningful reformed and True Anglican Protestant changes.David.McMillanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05796190283678318977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-15739240996164069182010-09-21T22:46:05.894-07:002010-09-21T22:46:05.894-07:00Robin asserts:
"In reading Bishop Ray Sutton...Robin asserts:<br /><br />"In reading Bishop Ray Sutton’s letter in response to Matt Kennedy’s Stand Firm article, “The ACNA and the Filioque: Decisions Matter,” I noted that Bishop Sutton frequently resorted to sophistry, or false argument, in his letter. A number of his arguments had no bearing upon the subject at hand, and gave the appearance of being designed to impress his readers with his erudition as well as to muddy the water and to obscure the truth. The views that he expressed were largely opinion, a particular interpretation of Church history. They were not fact. For example, Church historians disagree over whether the Forty-Two Articles were adopted. Charles Hardwick in A History of the Articles of Religion, pages 111-112, builds a well-reasoned case for their synodical approbation. In any event they were adopted by the Convocation of Canterbury and were promulgated at the order of King Edward VI."<br /><br />Is there a rebuttal from the streets?Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-27047636600895504182010-09-21T22:28:19.932-07:002010-09-21T22:28:19.932-07:00Can we not get a rebuttal of the foregoing? This ...Can we not get a rebuttal of the foregoing? This is some weak stuff. Jim, please, offer something.Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-80135270879521760082010-09-21T22:19:56.643-07:002010-09-21T22:19:56.643-07:00Are we going to get no respondents or is "the...Are we going to get no respondents or is "the death of Christ," very God of very God, that insignificant?<br /><br />Jim, where art thou?<br /><br />Roy of Dallas, where art thou?<br /><br />Bob of Pittsburg, where art thou?<br /><br />David, the puffer of ACNA without substantive articles (www.virtueonline.org), where art thou...thou self-professed evangelical?<br /><br />Glad to be retired and be owned by no one. <br /><br />We have some catastrophic issues at bar...without answers.Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-18135098678712247062010-09-21T22:14:38.471-07:002010-09-21T22:14:38.471-07:00Thanks Jim for, perhaps, an inadvertent reference ...Thanks Jim for, perhaps, an inadvertent reference to the atonement.<br /><br />Do we have a clear view of that with Bob of Pittsburg? All I hear Bob tell us is about "the transforming love of Jesus." A Romanist or Orthodox Churchman says that. Or, has the the Protestant and Reformed Church not addressed this issue?<br /><br />I expect no answer from Bob in Pittsburg, Ray in Dallas, AMiA or ACNA, yet it is a very, very vital matter.<br /><br />Jim, what do u offer on the question and "nature" of Christ's atonement, its design and effect?<br /><br />These are very old and well-answered questions. Mr. Ray, erstwhile an REC Bishop, knows where this inquiry goes. So does the REC-malcontent Leo. Will we get answers?<br /><br />Not holding my breath here.Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-11958062952757665042010-09-21T20:51:53.314-07:002010-09-21T20:51:53.314-07:00Jim raises an excellent point more largely, if not...Jim raises an excellent point more largely, if not directly.<br /><br />The "nature" of the atonement. This must figure into the equation in the discussions with the Orthodox. It is no small point, although it may appear that Jim thinks so.<br /><br />The English Reformers addressed it.<br /><br />Will Ray? Leo of the REC knows precisely that whereof we speak. I know. I sat for three years under Leo's rehash of Reformed thinkers--Leo was an unhelpful rehash, since better men had addressed the issues in previous centuries. We doubt this will be an issue with Leo or Ray.<br /><br />Again, "acceptance and a place at the table" governs the discussions. Better observers than me have made those observations.<br /><br />Jim, what say you of the nature of the atonement? It is no small thing.<br /><br />Will Virtue address it? No. Will anyone from the ACNA address it? Will Ray? Hah!Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-50286641570148664562010-09-21T20:05:35.154-07:002010-09-21T20:05:35.154-07:00As to the "atonement," its nature and de...As to the "atonement," its nature and design, it would be very instructive to investigate the commissioners from the court of James 1st to the Synod of Dordt. Ahem, they all, except for one, agreed with the conclusions. These were Elizabethans.<br /><br />Will Ray Sutton talk of these things? Or the ACNA leadership? Can they? Would they? Better yet, are they "able" to discuss these things?<br /><br />From the satellite centres of advertisement, e.g. Mr. Virtue, we doubt it.<br /><br />Yet, we have our old books.<br /><br />I hope Jim is not arguing the old liberal anti-penal ideas of the atonement. We are long past those arguments.<br /><br />Jim, what say you?Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-37364903647976967312010-09-21T19:43:40.199-07:002010-09-21T19:43:40.199-07:00Jim:
Please tell me you are not arguing against t...Jim:<br /><br />Please tell me you are not arguing against the penal, vicarious and substitionary atonement of Christ?<br /><br />Are u a moral exemplarist? Governmental theory? What?<br /><br />Even old Ray, whatever else he might be--turncoat and auctioneer, I doubt would argue otherwise, although he has turned from his earlier tub-thumping Calvinism. As to Ray, one never knows.<br /><br />As to you, Jim, what are your views on the atonement of His Majesty?Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-73492050998021445702010-09-21T19:38:35.950-07:002010-09-21T19:38:35.950-07:00Jim:
Let's try Galatians 1, the reading for M...Jim:<br /><br />Let's try Galatians 1, the reading for Morning Prayer tomorrow, 22 September in the Sixteenth Sunday after Trinity.<br /><br />Jim, let's try a careful, exegetical, theological and doctrinal review of Romans 1-9.<br /><br />Negotiable, on your view? Let St. Paul adjudicate the case.<br /><br />As for Ray, he will bid to any auctioneering voice, provided that he, Ray, has a place at the table.<br /><br />What say you?<br /><br />(PS. Let's not even go near a debate about the penal, vicarious, and substitionary atonement, or r u going there? I hope not. If so, we have another issue at bar in this forum.)Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-16795075139849952522010-09-21T18:04:02.148-07:002010-09-21T18:04:02.148-07:00Joe I am saying that Jesus told the disciples that...Joe I am saying that Jesus told the disciples that no one who preached in his name could harm him. Which view of atonement you hold is less important than that you hold one. Which view of sacramental regeneration is less important than that you care at all. We can argue (hey I actually enjoy doing that!) over which is better if we get past the anathemas and the idea that what we think somehow makes us more Christian than any other sinner.<br /><br />FWIW<br />jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-35282493505401643842010-09-21T13:14:25.615-07:002010-09-21T13:14:25.615-07:00Jim,
Are you saying it is all right to believe fal...Jim,<br />Are you saying it is all right to believe falsely on all things so long as you believe in Jesus Christ? After salvation what do you with with sanctification of the sinner? Is it all right for him to continue believing falsely in all things? It is all right for him to keep his old nature?<br />JoeJoe Mahlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11159602829251282904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-42962997116413194322010-09-21T10:41:08.333-07:002010-09-21T10:41:08.333-07:00I shall demur from further posting, lest an impres...I shall demur from further posting, lest an impression is offered of "dominionism." <br /><br />Would rather see the thread return to the substance of Robin's inquiry.Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-84359380299244965262010-09-21T10:38:48.565-07:002010-09-21T10:38:48.565-07:00A little more on theonomy. Again, Ray was not tan...A little more on theonomy. Again, Ray was not tangential but central to the movement. He was the Pastor and Leader of many of these Reconstructionists. The movement, full of writers and strong voices, imploded. This may have been Ray's cue to "jump ship." He was wise to do so, but his judgment was poor in the first place. The next thing we know is that Ray--from a rigorist Reconstructionist, Erastian, and Dominionist perspective--is teaching in an Episcopal School.<br /><br />One doesn't just convert from a rigorist adherence to the Westminster Confession of Faith and then--over night, willy nilly--abandon it. We have a problem with Ray's ability in terms of judgement and deliberative moderation.<br /><br />Having watched the zigzags for years now have not endeared the palaver to this scribe.<br /><br />Additional info on Theonomy available at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy<br /><br />"Various theonomic authors have stated such goals as "the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics",[7] exclusion of non-Christians from voting and citizenship,[8] and the application of Biblical law by the state.[9] Under such a system of Biblical law, homosexual acts,[10] adultery, witchcraft, and blasphemy[11] would be punishable by death. Propagation of idolatry or "false religions" would be illegal[12] and could also be punished by the death penalty.[13][14]<br /><br />In Bahnsen's view he clarifies that the laws of God are not to be imposed by force upon society. Rather, they are the standard which Christian voters and officials ought to pursue. Nor are civil officials constrained to literally enforce every Biblical law, such as one-time localized imperatives, certain administrative details, typological foreshadows, or those against envy and unbelief. "Rulers should enforce only those laws for which God revealed social sanctions to be imposed"[15]Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-54199852159017451222010-09-21T10:21:18.846-07:002010-09-21T10:21:18.846-07:00Mr. Ray was in this movement in a major way. Thic...Mr. Ray was in this movement in a major way. Thick, loud, public, and abrasive within the Presbyterian world. Many of us watched, listened and recoiled as these Dominionists sought power. The rancour and noise went far and wide. Ray was with the movement through the 80's until REC/RES picked him up. RES leaders must have had a screw loose. Roy Grote (an REC bishop)in Houston made Ray go back and clean up his internet messes re: Reconstructionism. Ray was forced to abjure it. No one, Virtue included, has assessed this background. Or even Ray's fundamentalist, dispensationalist days at Dallas Seminary. <br /><br />A fair summary of Reconstruction at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionist<br /><br />Christian Reconstructionism is a religious and theological movement within Protestant Christianity that calls for Christians to put their faith into action in all areas of life, on public sphere as well. The beliefs characteristic of Christian Reconstructionism include:<br /><br />Calvinism, for its description of individual spiritual regeneration by the Holy Spirit that is required to change people on a personal level before any positive cultural changes can occur,<br /><br />Theonomy: applying the general principles of Old Testament and New Testament Law to the corresponding family, church and civil governments (compare with theocracy); opposed to church-state separation of any kind, believing the state is under God and is therefore commanded to enforce God's Law.<br /><br />Postmillennialism, the Christian eschatological belief that God's kingdom began at the first coming of Jesus Christ, and will advance progressively throughout history until it fills the whole earth through conversion to the Christian faith and worldview,<br />The presuppositional apologetics of Cornelius Van Til which holds there is no neutrality between believers and nonbelievers, that the Bible reveals a self-authenticating worldview and system of truth, and that non-Christian, non-Reformed belief systems self-destruct when they become more consistent with their presuppositions, (Bahnsen, Van Til's Apologetic, pp. 145–6, 97, 315–6) or even the presuppositionalist approach of Gordon Clark, and<br /><br />Decentralized political order resulting in minimal state power and laissez-faire economics.[1]Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-26906804849081204352010-09-21T10:15:24.384-07:002010-09-21T10:15:24.384-07:00JimB:
You quote Ray, suggesting this to be proble...JimB:<br /><br />You quote Ray, suggesting this to be problematic. Here's Ray. And a 1-and-a-2-and-a-3-anda...let the band play on as we watch Ray dance.<br /><br />"I would also add that while I agree with and strongly support our own Anglican formularies, one is not saved by believing in a particular doctrine of salvation: he/she is saved by Jesus Christ." and "We’re not even saved by believing in the doctrine justification by faith only, as important and convinced of this doctrine as we may be. It is not faith in our faith that saves us; it is Jesus Christ!"<br /><br />This is specious tap-dancing by Ray. Or, Foxtrot? Or the Waltz? Hmm, East Coast Swing?<br /><br />It's a pathetic statement by Ray.Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073400.post-51744568937592320902010-09-21T10:07:16.211-07:002010-09-21T10:07:16.211-07:00Ray went to Reformed Episcopal Semimnary in a lead...Ray went to Reformed Episcopal Semimnary in a leading capacity in 1991, still fresh from the right-wing, theonomic, Reconstructionistic, Federal Visionistic, Shepherdian, Theocratic, Erastian and Dominionist camp. These fellows were sheer brutes, including Ray, a Pastor and Leader in the movement at Westminster Presbyterian Church, Tyler, TX.<br /><br />Very, very tragic decision. I was at sea and unable to monitor much. But whoever hired Ray needed to have their heads examined. Ray had NO BACKGROUND AT ALL IN ANGLICANISM, NONE! But the ever-shifting Ray was ever-shifting. Ray began the Dominionistic takeover alongside the malcontent Leo.<br /><br />By 2006, one sees a rewrite of the REC "Declaration of Principles," eschewed by Leo and Ray. <br />www.rechurch.org/txtpdf/trueunity.pdf This careful piece offers a landbridge for inter-confessional unity with the Anglican Province of America (APA).<br /><br />The sad thing was the back-door, covert, high-handed, ham-handed and dominionistic manner of proceeding...Ray knows how to smile, but as indicated..."keep the hand on the wallet."<br /><br />As I said earlier, just waiting for the next "trade-off" or "trade-in" for "progress." Trust has been gone.<br /><br />The REC has been "done in." It's over for them. Their schools together might have 10-12 students.<br /><br />The days of the Protestant and Reformed Church of England are over.Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.com